How do we fix the sleep crisis in America?

Jesse:

From Significant, this is Crack It In An Hour.

Simon:

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Crack It In An Hour. We take a big, crazy, hairy problem facing the world, would you say? Facing society or just something that we think is interesting? And try to crack it in one hour. I'm Simon.

Jesse:

I'm Jesse.

Romain:

I'm Roman.

Simon:

There you go. See, this time I didn't introduce you guys. I got you to just introduce yourselves. This is progress. This is great.

Simon:

So, for those who don't know, I kinda laid out what this podcast is about. We also run a consultancy called Significant where we do this quite a bit for our clients. So if you're enjoying the show, please subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let's start the clock. We got a whole new problem to solve this week.

Simon:

And this week, I believe, Roman, you have the problem. We are coming in. Jesse and I are coming in fresh. We don't know anything about it.

Romain:

I'm the host, you guys. Alright. So there's gonna be some eye rolling on that problem, you guys, because we talked about it so much

Simon:

Oh, no.

Romain:

In the last couple of months in our professional setting, in our personal lives too while we share things. It's like it's one of my obsessions. There's gonna be a shit ton of eye rolls.

Simon:

And

Romain:

that problem is how do we fix the sleep crisis in America?

Jesse:

I knew it. Sleep.

Simon:

Your favorite.

Jesse:

I literally knew it.

Simon:

Well, can you okay. So before Let

Romain:

me let let let me introduce the problem a little Yes, please. A little more. So there are I'm gonna do a bit of a data dump, Right? Just to substantiate the problem. You have about 35 of US adults reporting to sleep less than a quote unquote required amount of seven hours.

Romain:

To put it into perspective, because I was like, thirty five percent, is that big? Is that not big? Okay. I I I was like, how many people smoke in The US? I'm like, okay.

Romain:

Eleven percent of US adults smoke cigarettes. This this is CDC data, so so I'll trust that data. The thirty three, thirty five percent mark of smokers was in the mid eighties. Okay. Right?

Romain:

To give you, like, mid eighties, I I don't even remember that time because I was too, like, littlish, but, like, early nineties, I remember when you could smoke on a plane and you could light all of that thing that people talk about when they're when they're over 40. Right? Let's talk about teenagers. 70 three percent of high school students don't get enough sleep on school nights. The implication of what I call and many people call the sleep crisis implications are financial, obviously, because there's massive productivity loss in the workplace.

Romain:

There's health, it leads to Alzheimer's, heart disease, mental health struggles, and obviously, there's also financial cost there. But, like, let's just stop at health because it's to me a little more important. It is a big subject in today's society because technology is now playing a role in poor sleep. We're I'm sure we're gonna tech get to talk about how it is also maybe helping. It will be part of our conversation.

Simon:

Do we know if the sleep stats have gotten worse or better over time? They've gotten worse. They have.

Romain:

Okay. They have gotten worse. Yes. So that's my question today. Do we

Simon:

fix

Romain:

how do we fix the sleep crisis in America? And for the record, I did have some eye rolls from Jesse when I introduced the subject. Okay.

Jesse:

Well, the importance of sleep is subjective.

Romain:

You sure? I'm just looking at

Simon:

I'm just looking at data.

Jesse:

I'm kidding. You brought real data.

Romain:

What's interesting is actually, the two of our active clients that we we don't need to name Yeah. Are, like, in the vicinity of sleep. Mhmm. Right? So we didn't have that conversation.

Simon:

Becoming a bigger topic in our lives.

Romain:

Yeah. In our in our personal lives, but also in society. And it's not just age. It's, like, it's where culture has taken it. Like, there's that guy called Matthew Walker.

Romain:

I don't know if you've read his book. He's, like, a massive public figure in terms of he's an author and neuroscientist. He's a big public figure in, like, actually raising awareness around that crisis. And so he's been, like, on a shit ton of podcasts. He wrote a couple of books.

Romain:

I read one of them. It's really interesting. And so it is becoming a subject, but it hasn't been solved.

Simon:

Okay. This is great. Can I propose a new part of our podcast? This is episode three. We're still on early days.

Simon:

Go on. Which is the goal is to crack it in an hour. Can I propose we set the rule right now of what defines we cracked in? What are we looking to achieve with this? Are we looking to achieve how we change society?

Simon:

We we create a framework for how we change society to solve this. Are we talking about how we create plan to attack it? What what is what is our goal here today? What are we gonna try and do in the next hour as far as cracking this problem? Get people to sleep better?

Simon:

Well, the the long term goal

Romain:

is raise that lower that 35% number.

Simon:

Lower the 35%

Romain:

number. Next, you know, fifty five minutes, I would guess, would be first identify what the root the prob do people know about

Simon:

it. Identify the problem.

Romain:

Do we do we do we have an awareness issue, or do we have, like, just a taken action issue? Mhmm. I would guess there is an awareness issue, so we need to talk about that. Yeah. And I think we need to talk about actions.

Romain:

What is gonna lead people to be more overtly willing to improve their sleep? Right? Intentionally, not overtly. Right? Like, to move people to sleep

Jesse:

better. In theory, the tools already exist. I mean, we've had endless innovations in the last, you know

Romain:

You mean beds? Yeah.

Jesse:

Yes. Thank

Simon:

you. Have gotten comfier?

Jesse:

Beds are comfier than ever before.

Simon:

Spoken like a strategist there.

Jesse:

Yeah. Real insight. No. But I mean, like, every possible not every possible innovation, but in the last five years, so many innovations around sleep. So in theory in theory, let's say, it's not like we need to invent some new thing to get

Simon:

a new bed.

Jesse:

Correct. Yeah. We have to figure out how do you what is the gap between knowledge and action here, and how do you get people to take it?

Simon:

I love that. Okay. So here we go. Here's what we're gonna try and do over the next hour. Just to recap, we are gonna identify the problem, see if there's an awareness problem very specifically.

Simon:

Then we're gonna try and figure out some steps, tactics, motivations, whatever you wanna call them that would lead people to move. They would lead people to sleep better or move people to sleep better. Sound good?

Jesse:

Sounds good.

Simon:

Okay. So first, let's identify the problem here. What is the problem here? Is it that people don't know sleep is important? Is it that people don't realize they're not sleeping enough?

Simon:

Is it that what what Jesse, you start there.

Jesse:

I have a fundamental question, which I'm not sure we'll we'll have the data, to answer this directly in front of us, so maybe we can talk about it theoretically. But somehow we're measuring that people are getting are not sleeping well enough. And I'm assuming that the base of that measurement is hours per night.

Simon:

Biological.

Jesse:

By and Correct. And we're saying that there are implications to that, health implications. Yeah. But my question is, how many people not getting enough sleep are experiencing less happiness in their day to day lives because that is like the fundamental it is so hard for people to act against long term outcomes, and health is always a long term outcome.

Simon:

Can I sorry? Don't mean to cut you off. Please continue, Jesse.

Romain:

I have a lot of

Simon:

stuff. Oh, Roman's gonna cut you off.

Romain:

Go on. Oh, no.

Jesse:

I've I've said something.

Romain:

Time, I was gonna ask a question about your, like, about your question because you talked about happiness. I was like, okay. I have a big counter on that one. But then you talked about more of a way to approach the problem. Like, when you say people can't really think about long term implications of their their their decisions, this is this is getting into how do you frame that problem.

Romain:

So what can you elaborate

Jesse:

on what you're getting at? Together. My my brain is maybe going faster than I am. Know where you're going. Want it

Simon:

to go. But parallel you're about to draw.

Jesse:

I do I actually feel the impact of lack of sleep in my day to day life in a way that, like, if you if you boil down somebody's life to I'm having a good day or a bad day, let's just talk very simply. If I have I sleep five hours a night and I'm having a good day, Why do I feel the need to change anything? And I'm curious about the correlation between somebody's sleep habits and their their happiness. And I bring it up.

Simon:

Short term happiness.

Jesse:

Short term happiness. And I I bring that up because I I'm obviously the skeptic on this topic. Not that I disagree with the data and the actual implications of health. I just don't know how much people actually need to change their sleep in order to have an impact on their daily life.

Simon:

Is a good this is a good can I just for one second, I'd like to level set here because this is a good this is a good point to point out what I think is gonna be part of this conversation, which I think is very healthy? For the record, Roman, you're very into sleep. You you track your sleep. You're you're you're more into sleep than I think most average people are. Jesse, you are not a big sleeper.

Simon:

Right?

Jesse:

Correct.

Romain:

You do not sleep.

Jesse:

I sleep, and I'm not anti sleep. Like, let's be clear. This is not one of those, like, I take pride in only sleeping three hours a night.

Simon:

You you yeah. Exactly. To that point, you aren't a, like, oh, I'm so hardcore because I only sleep three hours. You just don't sleep much.

Jesse:

Yes. And and I think that you can be quite happy if you don't focus too much on how

Romain:

Right.

Jesse:

Little sleep. Anyway, I think we're getting off topic a

Simon:

little bit. Thought it

Romain:

was just important

Simon:

to set

Romain:

that up. I it's it's good because these there's gonna be the dynamics of this episode. It's for

Jesse:

the record.

Simon:

I'm somewhere in the middle.

Romain:

I'm probably somewhere the middle. Is gonna be the dynamics of this episode. Let me be provocative because it's my brand and counter your point, Jesse.

Simon:

He's already got a brand after three episodes.

Romain:

Love it. That's my middle name. Do you smoke cigarettes?

Simon:

No. Do you wish you did?

Romain:

Do you Note

Jesse:

the hesitation.

Romain:

Do you know I'm sure you know smokers or people who have been smokers. When you smoke cigarettes, you could ask the same question.

Jesse:

Can I smoke and be happy?

Romain:

Yeah. You absolutely can't smoke and be And and wake up every day and go to work and then smoke and you're very, very happy. This is the same kind of subject we're talking about.

Jesse:

Yes. But now we're gonna get into a philosophical discussion about life, which is you could smoke your whole life and be happy, and what's wrong with Yeah.

Simon:

The the the here's the way I always think about it with with with stuff like this, which is, like, I've I've had problems with depression before, and I always didn't realize I was depressed until after I got out of the depression. And then I was like, oh, I I had days that were high and low during my depression, but you didn't you never went as high and you were always just generally a lot lower and you didn't realize it until you got out of it that you were like, oh, I was depressed. And so the thing I always think about with sleep that and this is just from my own life, which is like, I can have a good day on six hours, but that same day won't be as good as if I had a good amount of sleep.

Jesse:

Well, in this

Simon:

sense I know that's

Jesse:

very simplified. But I mean, I think you were that gets that starts to get to some of the root of the of the inertia problem, which I do believe the core of the problem is inertia. Like, I mean, maybe there is some awareness of it because if you aren't even thinking about sleep and you wake up and you feel fine, you assume you got good Yeah. I mean, I I think I've said this to you guys maybe even earlier today. I didn't know I was bad at sleep until somebody here at this table told me I was bad at sleep.

Jesse:

But but, yeah, I mean, you you you don't know what you don't But I think inertia is probably the bigger the bigger problem. And the problem with that is you're asking people to take action on something they don't know.

Simon:

Yeah.

Jesse:

Yeah. You know? Because you're totally it's good comparison. You don't know that your your your day could be better until you have a better day, but then you're saying to somebody, here, like, you don't even know how great it could be. So do something and find out.

Simon:

Do change your entire routine and get to bed two hours earlier. They're like, well, wait a second. I like playing video games or whatever it is. You know what I mean? Okay.

Simon:

So awareness is clear. Is it awareness? That's the and I'm being a little high level right now. Is awareness the problem, or is it awareness plus motivation? Because I think what you're talking to is a good point, which is you could be like, hey.

Simon:

Did you know you're not sleeping very well? And you might go, yeah. I don't care.

Jesse:

I mean, I think if you actually want to have this my opinion, obviously, the the if you want to have material impact on the problem, I think you start with the people that have an inertia problem versus the people it's you're already starting one step forward. If you're starting all the way back with a group of people who don't even know that they're not sleeping well enough, then I think you're you're

Simon:

Okay. So we are we are gonna target the people who are already aware that they're having bad sleep.

Jesse:

Yeah. I'm not sleeping well. I know this is a problem, there's a real inertia Yeah. Issue.

Romain:

Now we I think most people who don't sleep well know it.

Jesse:

Yes. Maybe.

Simon:

Do think teenagers know?

Romain:

Maybe not.

Jesse:

That's a great question.

Romain:

Point. Yeah.

Jesse:

That is a really interesting I

Romain:

I I do fight. I don't fight. I we I do discuss that subject a lot with my teenage daughter because she doesn't sleep enough. Yeah. And she's like, I'm fine.

Romain:

Yeah. And I'm like, but do you know what it would be like if you slept more? Yeah. I was like, no. But I'm fine.

Jesse:

Yeah. But that's inertia.

Romain:

And then we told her, your lack of sleep impacts other things happening with your body right now that you don't like. And she was, like, two days later sleeping two more hours on Saturday morning.

Simon:

Did it work?

Romain:

It's not immediate. Does she think it's sorry.

Simon:

Does she think it's working,

Romain:

or does she feel it's

Jesse:

not I know what you're

Romain:

talking immediate. Yes. But so it's like, we'll we'll see. Right. But my point is, it was a carrot.

Jesse:

Okay. This is interesting because I'll I'll I'm not a great sleeper. I'm even worse at drinking water.

Romain:

Mhmm.

Jesse:

And I Next episode. Yeah.

Simon:

No. I have no interest in that episode whatsoever. Please don't bring that photo.

Jesse:

No. It's don't get me started on that one. And I never

Simon:

Big water.

Jesse:

Literally did not care and didn't care. Didn't care at all. And the only time I even considered starting to care is when someone said to me, you know, you're like exploring all of these skincare products and spending all of this money on skincare. But if you just drank some water, I bet your skin would be significantly better. And I was like, I am now interested in water.

Jesse:

And I hate to boil it down to that, it's it's true, and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna deny it. I'm like but it's not just the vanity part of it. It's a very clear like, it's one thing to say, hey. You you think you're having a great day, but you could have an even better day. It's another thing to say, hey.

Jesse:

Problem solution. That's how pretty much our brains work. You do this, this would happen. And I'm like,

Simon:

So is it okay. This is great. Because we got a target now of people who know they don't sleep, but they aren't doing anything about it. You're talking to the idea of basically showing them carrots. Right?

Simon:

Here are the carrots of sleep.

Jesse:

And sure. I know I know it is like better skin is a let's call it a not quite long term, but more of a medium term solution, but I would consider it a short term outcome. Because, like, let's go back to because there's two parts to this problem. There's people who are aware, but they have an inertia problem. The root of the inertia problem is you have no motivation right in front of you.

Jesse:

Yeah. And we are far more motivated by the things that we can predict and achieve right in front of us than we are this is why, and we don't have to get into this, but this is why, like, nobody cares as much as they should about sustainability because we're like, well, I mean, that's a forty, fifty, sixty, seventy year. I don't know. Like, I'll be dead by then.

Romain:

Yeah. Next episode.

Jesse:

Next episode. After the water episode.

Simon:

Oh god. This is gonna go real depressing. But, you

Jesse:

know, I mean, that's just a true like, we cannot we cannot we're not that motivated by by those

Simon:

It's the same thing as saving. You're what you've done saving. Gains.

Romain:

Yeah. Immediate gains. Immediate gains. Yeah. That's like that's where that's where climate change fucked up in the marketing in the next episode.

Romain:

But the the Yeah. Sleep is the same thing. Immediate gain, better skincare. Immediate as in, like, not the minute, but you see what I

Simon:

mean?

Romain:

Yeah. We're not talking about when you're 65 or

Jesse:

75. Now I'm interested in sleep.

Romain:

We're we're talking about, okay. The next couple months, maybe you're gonna see a result. Oh.

Simon:

Yeah. So I bet you could even do it faster than that. Like, I mean, like, if you say, if you sleep better, you're gonna have better performance at whatever you do tomorrow. I buy that. Yeah.

Simon:

Yeah. You know what I mean?

Romain:

But so, like sorry. I'm gonna take a bit of of attention here because I think it might lead us somewhere towards the end. To me, the question is, like, more than the audience, the blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It's like, how did we get here? What is what are the cultural societal shifts that have happened in the last few decades that have gotten us here?

Romain:

Mhmm. And I can put the first subject on the table that we can talk about is corporate America.

Simon:

Yeah. Like rise and pride in the rise and grind.

Romain:

The hustle, constant hustle. And if you don't work, like, fifteen hour days, then you're not good at what you do. Yeah. Yeah. It it's a thing.

Romain:

When you work in bigger organizations I mean, and obviously, we've been a little more privy to it because we're in the service business, and it's it's it's We've seen a lot. More, like, present. Yeah. But it is a it it is still a thing to this day. I feel like I feel like the next generation is beginning to say,

Simon:

no. That's that's

Romain:

a little stupid. Yeah. So I'm probably not gonna do that.

Simon:

Which is good because I would've been terrified by the, like, no. Now it's twenty hours a day you need to be working, like, if they went flip the other way.

Romain:

Yeah. It's kinda like not not just normalizing sleep deprivation. It's, like, encouraging it.

Jesse:

Oh, yeah. Totally. I'll add another one to that, which is obviously there was, like, the the climbing the ladder obsession. Then there was just then there was sort of a rise and grind Yeah. Kind of mindset.

Jesse:

Then there was what I would call, like, the, like, proliferation of productivity, which was turning every interest into a something to be productive around. Like, inter like, the the gig economy and the side hustle economy started with good intentions. It was like, hey. Work around the system. Find new ways to, like, make a little bit of of cash.

Jesse:

But then it became every interest you have should actually be a business. And you like, oh, you're knitting? Well, why don't you sell what you knit? Oh, you're doing and you're like, okay. Yeah.

Jesse:

Like, I can't even do things for fun anymore. Everything has to become a a productivity game.

Simon:

And where are you gonna take the time from?

Jesse:

Yeah. Now even things that forget just like sleep, the concept of, like, hanging out or chilling out or relaxing became productivity activities.

Simon:

Okay. So let me ask you a question. Because I think we're you you you're bringing up an interesting, point of tension, which is do you think to sell sleep, you sell it in service of the existing problem, which is we can help you be more productive. We can help you do this. Or is it a bigger, more holistic thing of sleep as a part of a more balanced lifestyle?

Jesse:

I would on a on a personal level, I would love to see a more societal shift away from, like, the the productivity obsessed. But I think that there's gonna be a a split audience on that. I think you'd have to if any brand who wanted to have this conversation, I think you'd have to make a choice because you could go either way. You could talk about sleep and service of what you want to achieve or

Simon:

you can talk about an easier sell.

Romain:

The productivity angle? I don't know. Like, why is wellness exploding? It's not just in the purpose like, the p the the the the sorry. The wellness business being, like, on a on a whole another level than it was five years ago, it's not just because people wanna be productive.

Jesse:

Yeah. But even the act of wellness has become an act of productivity.

Romain:

Yeah. That is true. The wellness thing Unpack that. Let's talk about it. That's interesting.

Jesse:

Literally, like, what was supposed to be. I I think what's what started, and it was great when because I even think not just like you you mentioned, like, the newer generation maybe starting to be like, I don't know about that. I think that was already happening, but the momentum got unfortunately taken over by capitalism, really. But it was like, hey. We should be more balanced.

Jesse:

We should invest in our wellness. Self care really became a thing, like, like, in culture, like, ten years ago as a really, really big thing. But now all these brands saw the opportunity in wellness and self care and started building entire, like, ecosystems and products around these things and told people to have routines and to buy this and you need to buy that and you need to do this and you need to wake up at this time and eat this thing and do this.

Simon:

That's what I mean. But it's like Even wellness now kind of adapted the, I guess, what you call the the attitude of rise and grind culture. Right? Like, wellness isn't wellness isn't about balance anymore. It it sells the idea of balance through rigor and being dedicated to it.

Jesse:

Why why do people sleep in the first place? Other than, like, I know that's an insane question, but, like, we we have we have way overcomplicated our society. And when you said balance, I was thinking, like, was anybody no one was thinking about balance. Like, did you literally sleep out of this?

Romain:

In the the people who invented mammals? Like, why do people sleep in the first place?

Jesse:

Yes. Okay.

Romain:

Can you unpack that question?

Jesse:

It's it's as dumb as it sounds, which is like

Romain:

To be able to live.

Simon:

You need it to live.

Romain:

You need it live. It's like, do people eat? It's the same it's the exact same same answer.

Jesse:

Sleep because you were tired and you slept because the next day

Romain:

you to needs to rest to be able to recover, for your cells to recover, for in layman terms, if you wanna be able to live your life every day, you need to sleep. If and I don't have that data, but it's probably somewhere out there. How many days without sleeping do you need to get through before you actually die? That probably exists somewhere. Like, say you're gonna be like

Simon:

Oh, yeah. There is.

Romain:

Yeah. So you need sleep to live. It's the same as drinking water and eating and putting food in your body. No. You see what I mean?

Romain:

No. It's it's I'm not sorry. Outside of, like, hydration, blah blah blah. It's the same of, like Yeah. Yeah.

Romain:

It's it's biological needs.

Jesse:

I mean, I know it's a it's a very, like, literal dumb question, but I but it's interesting to me because I think you always have two options when you're looking at a problem like this. You can go back to the beginning and say, if this is literally like this was just life. Like, you just you sleep to live, and you should sleep. And that is it's like make it more simple. Or you have the other conversation which looks more to the future and says, hey, the need hasn't changed, but context has.

Jesse:

We now live in a way more complex society with a lot more technology and there's more demands on us and more pressure. So in the past, sleep was about just literally survival, but now we need it to balance out all the chaos of life around us. And normally, I lean towards the context side, but there's something about this conversation that makes me wanna go back towards the, like, just make it simple. Make it feel simple. The easiest thing in the world should be falling asleep.

Romain:

But let's yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Let's let's couple that with what you said earlier, I really agree with around I don't know.

Romain:

My brain translated it as immediate gains, but whatever. Like, how does the simplicity and how do simplicity and, like, the immediacy of the results can intersect?

Jesse:

Well, if somebody paid me money to be a better sleeper, I might consider it.

Simon:

Interesting, though, because I think what you're trying to figure out now is, like, if someone knows they're not sleeping well, they know it's fundamental to their well-being, they know it's gonna be what makes them good, and they're clearly not doing it still, there's obvious massive hurdles getting in the way there. Right? Like, it's probably habits. It's probably what they deem to be kind of like, probably, if I had to guess, probably a little bit of it is just a feeling of a lack of time to themselves because I know that's why I often stay up.

Jesse:

It's called bedtime procrastination.

Simon:

Is it? So it's like so it's like how if we're just gonna say in the very, very short term, we are gonna help people sleep better, what are those what are those barriers to overcome for these people if they already know they're not sleeping better?

Jesse:

I think you have to start by stopping shaming people for sleeping badly.

Simon:

Yeah, Roman.

Romain:

Yeah. No. No. It's come on. Fuck off

Jesse:

you guys. I I was I never felt shamed. I will say that. But no. But it's because I'll give you my version of, like, yes, all the reasons why I don't sleep well.

Simon:

Right.

Jesse:

Everything that you talked about, many other hurdles, sometimes I feel like my brain just doesn't shut off.

Simon:

Yep.

Jesse:

But what I decided years like, in high school, I decided because I've always been a pretty bad sleeper. I actually asked my parents. As a baby, I was the worst. Really? Never slept.

Simon:

And maybe you're

Romain:

part of, like, the very low percentage of people who literally can run on Maybe. On less sleep. Maybe.

Jesse:

But what I decided years ago was I just wasn't gonna be stressed about it anymore. Like Right. Because turning the idea of sleeping badly into something that I now had to be stressed about constantly. If I woke up every morning and was, like, stressed out that I wasn't getting enough sleep, that was having way more of a negative effect on me than the sleep itself.

Romain:

Right.

Jesse:

So I do think the the idea of making people like, yes, you do have to push people towards action, but how do you do it in a way that doesn't make them feel bad for how they're currently sleeping. Because the minute you turn it into, like, a stressful thing that they need to work on and improve on, you're like, well, great. Let me add it to my to do list.

Simon:

I don't disagree. I think that makes sense. I'm trying to think of what's the flip side. Like, do you here's a bad crazy idea. Do you gamify sleep?

Simon:

Yes. Do you know what I mean? Do you find a way to make it more interesting for people to get good at?

Romain:

Which which is what arguably a lot of the wearables are trying

Simon:

to do. Wearables are trying to do that for sure. I don't know.

Romain:

Obviously, I see it maybe as a bigger problem than you guys see it. But I think you need to go a level I think it might be a generational issue, and I think we need to start with young people if we wanna change long term behavior.

Simon:

Right.

Romain:

There's some crazy stats about the impact of sleep on ACT results. Like, they did some samples around some schools starting school later Right. As opposed to like 8AM. You go to school at like 09:30, so you get an extra ninety minutes of sleep. SAT scores go up.

Romain:

Like, it's crazy like the the the results that it can get. There are some crazy studies around, like, mental health and suicide rates when you have less sleep. Similarly Well, could imagine. Something like that. So if it's becoming that proven scientifically, that big on health and the economy, you need to think about how to do a drastic shift long term.

Romain:

Yeah. So it's like it needs it's like similar to, at some point, you know, governments around the world were like, alright. I guess people are gonna need to smoke a little less.

Jesse:

So just gonna say back to your smoking statistic, how did we get from thirty five percent to eleven percent?

Romain:

So we're gonna have to do something about it.

Simon:

But let's cool

Romain:

people. So there's legislation. There's, you know, there's public health campaigns. There's there's a lot of that. And there's changes in like, just talking about school, of course, it's complicated, but it's possible to get schools to start a little later.

Romain:

It's not impossible.

Simon:

The thing the thing about let's talk about the cigarette comparison. Because I think the cigarette comparison, obviously, most of it was based on fear. Right? It was like smoke cigarettes, you're gonna get cancer. Look at what your lungs look like.

Simon:

This is terrifying. Holy crap. I don't want that. Okay. I'll stop smoking.

Simon:

Yeah. That I get how quickly like you put that in front of people, you show them the truth. You do this, you do that, you do this, stop smoking. Got it. Pretty clear.

Simon:

Sleep's not the same direct now I don't know. You could say, look, if you sleep, you increase your chances of Alzheimer's, but

Romain:

like

Simon:

it

Romain:

will actually Sorry. And don't quote me on Alzheimer's because it's because I'm I couldn't completely verify this.

Simon:

That's it is it is

Romain:

definitely proven for, like, heart disease, mental health. But to your point,

Simon:

it's not like a black lung. Exactly. You know what I mean? It's not visual. Exactly.

Jesse:

That's exactly the thing. Visualization. Yeah. Like but the but there is but that's a really interesting opportunity because there are ways that you could visualize the impact of something even if it's not the, like, the physical manifestation biologically. Like, if you could figure out how to I don't know.

Jesse:

This is like a probably a bad idea. But like if you created an installation that even like that created energy and the energy was correlating to the the sleep patterns of the like, I'm imagining something in the middle of New York that is like emitting, like, very dim, sad light. And you're like, oh, this is basically the energy of America right now based on how much sleep everyone got night. And you're like, wow. That's sad.

Jesse:

I'm not saying that's the best idea, but I'm saying that there are ways that you could maybe start to visualize, like, the the energetic impact of the societal

Simon:

Energy's tough. Yeah. Can I give you a really direct one? Can I give you just a second? If I could say to you, hey, I have a stat that proves that if you sleep eight hours a night, you're more you're you you make 20,000 more dollars a year.

Simon:

Bad example. But like just something like that, I go, oh, okay. Now I see why I need to sleep.

Jesse:

It's this it's the drink water and your skin will be better. Exactly. Exactly.

Simon:

Know what I mean? And I think, like, I don't I don't mean to be like, sometimes getting people to do the right thing, you're not doing it the right way is necessarily. And I think, sadly, that's a thing I think I run into a lot with our my job. You know what I mean? You wish it was just like, if you have a rational conversation about what's right with people, they'll list they don't.

Simon:

And often. Not always, but often. And I think that is one of those things that like if you could dangle like not a black lung, but if you could dangle an equivalent of if you do this, this happens to you in a very concrete way, I think then you start to get to some interesting places. Now I don't know if that's true or not, but I imagine there probably is a sleep deficit with people less wealthy than people who are more wealthy, but I don't know if that's the case

Romain:

for sure. That is absolutely correct. It's a massive disclaimer on this conversation is that we're definitely part of the 10%, and we have access to more resources to sleep better. We have we don't need to do double, triple shifts. Like, so the lower your income bracket, the worse your sleep is.

Simon:

Right. And that's kind of like a a chicken and the egg conversation then too. Right? Because you can't say, we'll just sleep more, and your your chances of making more money will increase because they're gonna go, no. I'm losing sleep because of all the jobs I need to

Romain:

work. Yeah.

Simon:

That's fair.

Romain:

Can I can I ask a question? Because we talked about I love, like, the you know, you you gotta like, semi immediate results. Like, if you do this, this happens. I think we've been circling around this for for a few minutes. But what about antiaging medicine Or anything medicine.

Romain:

Sorry. The industry. Interesting. People actually take things for a result they're hoping to happen decades from now. Like and it's not measurable.

Romain:

It's not quantifiable. How the fuck did they maybe it's vanity. But how did they build such a massive industry on a promise that is sometimes false? It's the only thing I the only industry I could think of But what is because I agree with that insight in general.

Simon:

Can you give an example of a product like that?

Romain:

You're gonna put cream on around your eyes when you're 30 years old, and you're gonna get wrinkles at 48, not at 42.

Simon:

I still think with most most of those, I could be wrong, but I still think most of those, there's there is some form of, and look, it's already working. Right? Like, it I don't think people are like, see, you're saying no and Jesse's saying yes.

Jesse:

I I mean, I don't have the the actual timeline on this, but I feel like the antiaging industry really blew up with people who were already aging.

Simon:

Yeah.

Jesse:

And that's where you saw a lot that's where it got really, really popular and there you did see effects. But then the younger generation was like, oh, well, we should be doing these things preventatively. Like, Botox was something that you did when you started seeing wrinkles, and you're like, oh, I want these to go away. And now you have, like like, women in their twenties doing preventative Botox.

Romain:

Yeah. Yeah. But preventatively, we're talking about the same

Jesse:

thing. Yes. I know. I think it's really and actually, and I don't have the stats on this, so I'm just gonna make it up. But, like, I have a theory that sunscreen sunscreen, which was the thing that was like protecting people from skin cancer.

Simon:

Yeah.

Jesse:

No one cared about that, but the minute sunscreen was like anti aging Totally. And this is the best preventative like aging people were like, sunscreen. Hell yeah. Like I

Simon:

love sunscreen.

Jesse:

I'm gonna I'm gonna

Simon:

get big on sunscreen. Sunscreen? Yeah.

Romain:

But frankly, that might be the angle. Because sleep

Jesse:

I'm interested.

Romain:

A contributor to a longer life.

Simon:

Yeah. I still don't I that's a tough sell. That's a tough sell

Romain:

to me. Because it's not proven immediately. Right? But it's the same as, like, like, sunscreen.

Simon:

Like, if you said even even with even with cigarettes, when you were like, hey, did you know if you smoke cigarettes, chances are you're not gonna live as long? I was like, cool. Sure. But then they're like, black lung. I was like, oh, okay.

Simon:

I'll stop smoking. You know what I mean? Like, it's like it's like, I I think it's a good support. I don't think it's the I don't think it's the thing to make like, if you said I don't know. Do you know a stat, like, around, like, if you sleep x amount, you're gonna sleep live this much longer?

Romain:

No. I think it exists somewhere.

Simon:

I I agree. I and I'm not I'm not challenging that. I bet it's true. But I do think you need a this equals this. Here we go.

Jesse:

Well, I think that, like, okay. Let's go back to, Roman, what you said about if you really wanna make a shift, you actually have to start with a younger generation. For the sake of this conversation, let's say it's too late for the rest of us. You cannot convince anyone over the age of Okay. 25 to change

Simon:

Their sleep.

Jesse:

Their sleep habit. It's too late. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. Maybe I'll be a late adopter on this whole journey. But if you start having like, I know that what you're not buying the idea of preventative necessarily.

Jesse:

And I actually I do As

Simon:

a motivator,

Jesse:

I'm as a motivator. Although I do I do agree with that. I do still think you have to introduce other components to it, but I think that there's permission to have the conversation at a different level with people who haven't even yet experienced the full effects of life getting in the way of your ability to sleep. Mhmm.

Simon:

If I said to you let's let's speak to teenagers in high school. If I said to high schoolers, did you know that for every hour extra you sleep on top of six hours, you increase your chances of getting into a great college by x percent? Like, I'm just trying to think of something like just on that sort of stuff. I don't

Jesse:

know that you're gonna get there rationally. But you remember the, like, it's it's 10:00. Do you know where your kids are?

Simon:

Yeah.

Jesse:

It's 10:00. Are your children sleeping? Sleeping?

Simon:

Yeah. Exactly.

Jesse:

Bring back vacuum pain.

Simon:

Because I just it it's just like it's crying for, like, a like, it's a little bit the like, we all know sleep's important. Yes. We all know you gotta get a good amount of sleep. Yes. Why exactly?

Simon:

And then when you get into the why exactly, I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just saying they're not particularly motivating in that moment.

Romain:

Yeah. I get you. You you need personal, like, what's in it for me right now. Exactly. Things.

Romain:

It's the for me and it's the and it's the right now. Because if I like, back to your question around sleep stats, there is one that is getting close that is around natural killer cells, which are necessary not even critical for immune function. That says that after after just one night one night of only four to five hours of sleep, your natural killer cells drop by 70. Wow. You literally Your immune falls apart.

Romain:

Falls apart. Right. So I'm quite sure the stat, you apply it to like

Simon:

Jesse, this is If you apply it You might never get sick again if you sleep eight

Romain:

hours late. To fifty five years, I'm quite sure it leads to to like a younger death.

Simon:

Right.

Romain:

But, again, I'm not answering your question

Simon:

about I know.

Romain:

For me right now Yeah. And maybe maybe it's the the solution is for me right now. I I don't know. I'm torn because % in all of marketing for me right now works better than the other one. Okay.

Romain:

The the counter is the aging.

Jesse:

But can I give you another challenge on this? I know that we haven't cracked the the inertia challenge, but I

Simon:

know we've ever been more far apart on this on the on a topic than

Jesse:

this one. So It's it's an interesting one. And I okay. So here's another challenge, and I'll just use myself again as an example. I am aware of the problem.

Jesse:

I can understand the benefits. I I am interested in getting more sleep. So I'm like, let's say, past the inertia point, but I feel like I can't control it. I feel like it is not in my control. And then you begin the cycle of frustration Right.

Jesse:

Where now I've just introduced a component to my life that frankly I feel I'm failing at.

Simon:

Right.

Jesse:

When before I never considered it a failure.

Simon:

Right.

Jesse:

And now I'm more stressed out than I've ever been because I'm trying so hard to do something that like when I go to bed, my intention every night is to have a great night of sleep.

Simon:

Right.

Jesse:

And if I can't, like at some point, like the I think one of the reasons that it is so hard to fundamentally change this is because the reward system is not totally in your control. And so anyone that you sort of get past the inertia could very quickly go back into the cycle of being like, fuck this. Because if I can't do anything to change it and I'm and

Simon:

I'm Well, let me okay.

Jesse:

Probably a million things I haven't tried.

Simon:

You brought something But you brought something very interesting into my head that I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna try and sell you on that is completely irrational. Okay? So now I'm going to a completely different place. You get into bed with the intent of going to sleep. Right?

Simon:

What if the whole way of doing this was we're gonna start a trend called, twelve hours in bed, and it doesn't matter. Just enjoy. How can you enjoy spending twelve hours in bed? You don't need to sleep. Just just make twelve hours your goal to spend twelve hours in bed and hang out.

Simon:

Why? It feels good. Feels good. And what we're gonna do is it's like, yeah, sometimes like, listen, everything in moderation including moderation. Right?

Simon:

We're not telling everyone like you need to sleep all this time, all this thing. Like, go and have a drink and have a great time and stay up late sometimes. But also, maybe once every two weeks, have a twelve hour Sunday where you go into bed and you lay there. Why? And we're gonna just talk about how awesome that feels.

Jesse:

That's called bed rot, and people love doing it. And it was a big trend in during the pandemic that I think people have sort of you know, we don't talk as much about bed rot.

Romain:

Like goblin mode and all that.

Jesse:

But it is kind of interesting because, like, like, it started as a pandemic thing, but the core of it was fighting against the productivity culture.

Romain:

And he

Jesse:

was just like, I'm just gonna bed rot. Like, and that's fine. And I'm gonna enjoy it, and I don't care. And I'm gonna get delivery, food, and maybe I'm even gonna eat it in bed, and I don't care.

Simon:

Yeah. Because, like, what I then what you can do at that point is you almost start marketing it as I don't know what you'd call it. Like, it's super, super, super indulgent. You don't even lead with the wellness factor. You don't lead with irrational.

Simon:

You lead with a it just feels good.

Jesse:

That's interesting. You lead there it's making me think of two things. One, the indulgence over wellness. Yeah. And, like, let wellness be the outcome that you experience rather the thing that you tell people because the minute you tell people that, you feel like you're being lectured.

Simon:

Yeah.

Jesse:

So let it be let it be the outcome. And the other thing is have one day like this a week. Yes. Exactly. Now every night you're gonna try to sleep well.

Jesse:

Now you must night I'm trying

Romain:

to sleep well. It's like Chill and enjoy.

Jesse:

Chill and enjoy.

Simon:

What's the best way to do that? Bed.

Jesse:

One night a week.

Simon:

Yeah. I didn't start like, any sport I started, I didn't start because I'm like, this will have wonderful logical repercussions on my health system. It was like, no. This is fun. Oh, and it just so happened to help build strength or build my cardio or whatever it was.

Simon:

And to me, I'm kinda like, okay. If we've tried the rational and they're all sort of intangible and tough to pin down, what if we went with the very rational that, like, man, when you get an awesome bed and you lay in it and you hang out and with all of the modern, like, economy of, like, entertainment that you can do in bed? Like, dude, I I mean, I'm sure both of you know this. Like, I don't I sleep I'm probably in the middle of you two. I sleep probably about eight hours a night, but I'm in bed early because I just like to hang out in bed.

Jesse:

That's my nightmare. But but but I'm not a religious woman at all, but let's bring back the day of rest.

Romain:

You know?

Simon:

I'm just trying to figure out a different way at this, guys.

Jesse:

No. It's interesting. I I like I had never thought about it as because when somebody starts having a conversation with you about fix your sleep

Simon:

Yeah.

Jesse:

I think of it

Simon:

It's tense.

Jesse:

I think of it in its entirety. Like, okay. Seven nights a week, better sleep every night. If someone says, what if one day a week you tried really hard to even if you don't end up sleeping, just rest.

Simon:

Just enjoy the time in bed.

Jesse:

It's interesting. Take the pressure off a little bit.

Simon:

Pressure off. And then it also becomes one of those things where you if these people are aware of, yeah, I know I'm not sleeping well enough. You're like, woah. Woah. Woah.

Simon:

Woah. Woah. Hey, buddy. We don't need to talk about that yet.

Jesse:

You're alright, man.

Simon:

Good, dude. Let's just chill in bed for a bit. You know what I mean?

Jesse:

Alright. So we're building a bed for all of humanity.

Simon:

Does that feel more

Romain:

What's interesting is that staying in bed, at least when I grew up and where I grew up, and I'm pretty sure it was the same here, was attributed was associated with laziness. Totally. So you gotta shift that.

Simon:

You gotta shift it.

Romain:

Because, like, when like, growing up, if I would, like, stay in bed until 10AM on a weekend Yeah. You know, you'd you'd you'd get out of bed and you get the eyes of, like, your parents being like, oh, you're lazy fuck. Like, what are what are you doing as opposed to going out and being out in the world and discovering the world or studying or whatever.

Simon:

Dude.

Romain:

But that's somewhat gotta gotta change. Yeah. Of course, like, if you went to bed at 6AM because you were drinking, then, yeah, I'll still, like, roll my eyes at you, kids. Yeah. Youth.

Romain:

But but but if if not, then, yeah. Like, being the bed shouldn't be associated with laziness.

Jesse:

I think that's a huge thing because I I'm not gonna drum up my entire childhood, but I think that is the core of I mean, I just was naturally a bad sleeper, but that is the core of how I was like, everything had to be rest had to be earned, and Mhmm. Laziness was a like, waking up late, was definitely like a association to to laziness.

Simon:

This is this is interesting now. This is very interesting because now we're almost in a weird way discussing a solution that jumps right in the face of sleep efficiency and everything says. Right? Because I think what we're saying here potentially with something like this is everyone everyone, trackers, all those things, all they technically say is like, no screens in the bed. When you go to bed, do this.

Simon:

When you get up, make it to sunlight. This, this, this, this. What if it was actually the opposite? What if it was make bed just a bigger extension of your life? Do everything you're gonna do.

Simon:

Why? Because then eventually you'll fall asleep and just keep sleeping. Just keep sleeping in that place you're comfortable. I have no science to back this up. I'm just someone Someone will refute

Romain:

that

Simon:

too. I I love I love the contrarian approach of like, hey. You know what's not gonna help people? Pressuring them into sleeping more efficiently. Because when you're like, remove all screens, make sure you wake up to natural light, like, stuff is like none of that sounds fun.

Jesse:

I love the idea of, like, get in bed at 7PM, and eventually, you're gonna fall asleep. Totally.

Simon:

I love that. But if you said, like, alright. In our family, we're gonna implement, Saturday nights are 9PM in bed, and

Romain:

no one sees anyone until 9AM. Just chill in bed.

Simon:

And, obviously, like, you know, with little kids, I'm

Romain:

not saying, like, you can't come in or anything weird like that. But it is just like there is something interesting in sort of this, like,

Simon:

moment of rest.

Jesse:

Yeah. I think I think removing language like wasted day. Yeah. And like, well, did you earn this nap? Or, like, there's just there's just a bit of, I think, a cultural reframe about, again, not the wellness of sleep because I think everyone's like, yeah.

Jesse:

Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Sleep is important, but more so about how easy sleep should be.

Simon:

Sleep's awesome.

Jesse:

Sleep's awesome. There's your line.

Simon:

Mens are awesome. No. Because okay. Here's and this is why I'm glad you two are on this. Right?

Simon:

Which is like, Roman, I imagine I take you to be a person probably and I'm probably a little more like this too considering some of the things I've done in my sleep lately, where it's like, oh, I'm having this problem. Okay. I'll approach it and fix it because I'm probably alright already at sleeping, and I can just change a move a few knobs around and boom. I'm doing it even better. Jesse, you've always had a lifelong problem with with being able to sleep correctly.

Simon:

So all this stuff just sounds really cute to you, but it's like, no. No. No. No. You don't get it.

Simon:

Like, I can't. You know what I mean?

Jesse:

When I and again, I'm I'm not I'm certainly, like, when people are like, oh, have you tried melatonin? I'm like, no. That happened. So maybe there are some things I could probably do.

Simon:

Right.

Jesse:

But yeah. Like when I tell you that I I literally cannot turn my brain off, which is probably my main problem, and I have done all the things, you know, I I work out. I exert a ton of energy through the day. I stop I used to work out at night. I changed it to the mornings because supposedly that was having an effect.

Jesse:

I try to stop working. Let I used to just like work and then go straight to bed, and now I always try to take at least thirty minutes to do something else. But my I cannot turn my brain off and my my sleep, my wake and dream worlds are too mixed. And like everything I dream about is things that are happening. Like, I'll be writing presentations in my head and my sleep.

Romain:

Yeah.

Jesse:

I can't stop. I don't like, what and I don't wanna take drugs. I don't wanna be, like, Benadryl out every night. No. Like, I mean

Romain:

No. I don't think that

Jesse:

I'm there. Once a quarter, I'm like, I'm thinking I'm gonna take some sleepy meds.

Romain:

Scientifically proven to actually not work. You have you sleep or you're asleep? Sleep. But it's crap sleep. Yeah.

Romain:

Okay. This podcast is your your case is really interesting, and I don't wanna get into, like, I'm not a sleep doctor. But just one question because it's about turning your brain off. Do you sleep better when you're on vacation?

Simon:

No. Okay. Really? Interesting. Interesting.

Jesse:

But but it's for that's actually for another reason, which is I just I wanna have fun. I'm like, oh, is the sun out yet? Like, are we gonna do things? Are we like

Romain:

The FOMO.

Jesse:

Yeah. I have major FOMO when I am asleep, and I'm like, literally at first sign of sunlight. I'm like,

Simon:

let's go.

Jesse:

Let's go. Let's go do

Romain:

something. The

Simon:

I mean, I I might make the argument you have a rise and grind mentality applied to just about anything in your life.

Jesse:

Yes.

Romain:

That is correct. So

Jesse:

maybe I'm not the you know, maybe I'm

Simon:

not the audience. I think this is a common I think this is a common problem. Do you know what I mean? And, like, that's that's my thing is, like, I think a lot of I I I think a lot of the things that people are like, here's how we optimize sleep are really effective for people who already have a certain relationship with sleep and borderline pointless for people who don't have that relationship with sleep.

Jesse:

But I do like, what I like about what we talked about is maybe the goal is not actually what we said at the very beginning of this podcast,

Simon:

which is

Jesse:

to get better sleep, and it's just to feel more rested

Romain:

Yeah.

Jesse:

Or to embrace resting. Like, because I don't know that I'm ever going to sleep eight hours a night every night. And and the minute that's the goal is the minute I feel like I'm failing at something. But when you say, let's start to shift the conversation about rest isn't something that has to be earned and like a wasted day is fine. It's not actually wasted at all.

Jesse:

And like the the bed is an indulgence, not a wellness tool. Like it's indulge, not not seek better wellness. I'm suddenly like, oh, okay. You're you're changing actually my perception and my relationship with the idea of rest. And actually now you're taking the pressure off of me Yeah.

Jesse:

To be a better sleeper. And like maybe resting, I'm gonna take a nap. And I'm like, oh, a nap? I that doesn't usually happen to me, but, like, cool. That's I

Simon:

think you're right. And it's funny because I know I started on this side, which is that originally, I was like, what's the rational reason we can use to talk to people into this? And now I'm being more and more like, well, people have tried that. It's gotta be irrational. Like, the whole, like, to your point, like, if you talk to my wife about the role of a bedroom, she sleeps very well.

Simon:

And I guarantee you, it does not match with what doctors would say the role of a bedroom is, which is essentially just asleep. Right? You should not be doing anything else there. She she loves living in her bed, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. And our kids hang out in our bed with us and all this stuff.

Simon:

It's great And I and we both sleep really well. And I think if you said to people, like, listen, just use it as essentially a sleep machine room. That's kind of that's a hard sell to people, man.

Jesse:

Yeah. I think I think what I'm realizing is like joyless. Yeah. That you bring a little you bring a little joy back. You actually in order my my thesis statement, I would say, is in order to what was your question at the beginning, Roman?

Jesse:

How do we improve sleep?

Romain:

How do we fix the sleep crisis in America?

Jesse:

In order to fix the sleep crisis, you don't make it about sleep at all.

Simon:

Make it about rest and enjoyment.

Romain:

I I maybe. This is this is focus group of one

Simon:

I know.

Romain:

Right here. Right? It's like For sure. Because because you have a massive I think that of the 35%, I think the bigger chunk will be people who can improve it through the small things and are not aware of the small things. Right.

Romain:

So I think and we're probably approaching time to wrap. Yeah. I think there is a there's when I think back at what we talked about for the for the last hour or so, you have to me, you have big societal long term things that you can do in parallel to more short term, feel like marketing things. And I think in the big societal legislation around should school start later? I can already hear people say, yeah.

Romain:

But if school start later, then work's gotta start later. Right. Which is true. And if work starts later, you can't extend it past that, past the current stop time because otherwise, you have the same problem. You're just gonna go to bed later.

Romain:

So then if working hours are lower than they are today, you're gonna have another kind of productivity issue. Probably. I don't have the data on this. But I still think that kids should be able to sleep more Yeah. To both educate them, but also perform better.

Romain:

I think if you wanna take it to, like, a cigarette, like, smoking comparison, like, focus group of one, but I'm quite sure the data will prove it. The day pictures of, like, black lungs and pierced throats started showing up

Simon:

On cigarettes?

Romain:

On packs of cigarettes. That that was that was good. That was that was pretty good. Right? Yeah.

Romain:

So to your point, this is, like, aggressive. You can't show direct cause and effect as much on sleep, but whatever. Are there PSA messages on your TV that show up at 09:30PM saying blue light increases your risk of blah blah blah, and it is recommended to stop looking at a TV six

Simon:

to six before going to bed? Honestly don't think works.

Romain:

Package of Yeah. It's a package of thing. So my point is there's, like, long term things through legislation. And I think when you get through to the short term things, we talked about how do you drive how do you show cause and effect? Yeah.

Romain:

Like, Simon, I think you pushed on the other things. It's a very good point. You talked Jesse a few times about taking the pressure off, including in the last five minutes, which I think is a very good point. So maybe some of it is gonna be about taking the pressure off as in you can start small. Yeah.

Romain:

But some of it will be reframing the message. It's like it's not about that checklist and of sleep. It's like just how about you're gonna feel more rested? How does that sound? Yeah.

Romain:

That that takes the pressure off. And then that little nugget that we played with a little bit about the bed and work on the misperception of being in bed about being associated to laziness or whatever. Suddenly you have long term, you have short term,

Simon:

sort of legislation Campaign y things.

Romain:

More campaigning things. Yeah. And you're starting to talk about something that over time is gonna is gonna show results.

Jesse:

Yeah. We'll add betisawesome.com to our list of the

Romain:

Betisawesome.com.

Jesse:

URLs that we wanna buy.

Simon:

Okay. So we got we got two minutes left. I guess I'll ask the question. Did we crack it?

Romain:

Here you go.

Jesse:

Well, I'll let you know how I sleep tonight. No. Yeah. I think I think that we I think we've started to, honestly. I mean, I will say even in this conversation for me, I I've I've always thought about how do I sleep better?

Jesse:

How do I sleep better? How do I sleep better? And now I'm starting to literally wonder, well, what if I'm just more rested? Yeah. And I think that's a pretty interesting reframe for someone like me, who obviously is not representative of of all the sleep crisis.

Jesse:

But, yeah, I'm I'm interested.

Romain:

Roman. Well, I I think this I didn't, you know, I didn't help ourselves by bringing a subject that's, like, big societal. Like Yeah. I don't think you can crack it in an hour. No.

Romain:

It's not a marketing No. Exactly. Issue. I'm not saying all marketing is just gonna be corrected in an hour, but least you can have good ideas. But and and there's plenty other subjects that I think we could have talked about, like comparison.

Romain:

Like, what other public health things have been, like, slowly growing without never people knowing it, and then how were they solved? Like, the business of sleep, we didn't really get in there. I was surprised because the business of sleep has gotten massive. We know the trackers. We know the beds.

Romain:

We know, like, there's a lot. Are there other businesses in the sleep industry that could actually help Mhmm. Resolve this? We could have gotten there. So there's a lot of things of subjects that I think we could keep talking about.

Romain:

So to answer the question, did we crack it? I would say we didn't fully crack it, but we definitely made we have a good framework to keep thinking. Yeah.

Simon:

I I think I'm probably somewhere close to you, Roman. I'm like, we didn't we didn't crack it with an asterisk, which is like, we didn't crack it, but after an hour, I'm excited to crack it. Does that make sense? Yeah. You brought up some good points there at the end, which is it is sort of like a multi tiered problem.

Simon:

And I think there's obviously, like, very clear and obvious sleep hygiene elements. There's cultural elements. And then there's also just like, how do you make people give a crap elements of this that are all sort of need to be addressed, and they probably require a bunch of tactics, a bunch of policies, a bunch of this, that, and the other thing. Because to just go like, oh, the secret to it is show the black lung. I don't think there is any black lung with sleep.

Simon:

No. And it's a little more nuanced than that, and it's a little more, what's the word? Like, we we kinda made a lot of these problems kind of through the way cultures just sort of shifted and stuff.

Jesse:

So Totally.

Simon:

I don't think we cracked it, but we I I'm with you, Jesse. I'm like, oh, we got some, like there'd be some some hypotheses now I'd be very curious to do. And I think the other interesting thing too, not to ramble on so much is like, man, sleep is personal. Like, it is so different for everyone. It's not like it's not just like I don't mean to keep bringing back this cigarettes, but cigarettes are so binary because your relation to them is your relationship to it is either you're a smoker or you're a nonsmoker.

Romain:

Mhmm.

Simon:

Sleep's like, yeah. I'm I sleep weird or I do sleep really well or I don't sleep well, but I can sleep well or I never could you know, it's it's it's crazy.

Romain:

Yeah. Let's start.

Simon:

Good stuff. Good chat.

Jesse:

So fun.

Simon:

That was fun.

Romain:

I'm happy because we got a diss stat and the other thing in the last two minutes from Simon. We did. We also got a little a.

Jesse:

I noticed that too.

Romain:

I think, you know, when it got really serious, it's almost emotional. We got the a. So so, anyway, good stuff, you guys, and, we'll be back next week.

Simon:

If you have any thoughts, questions, or ideas for another episode, don't be afraid to reach out. Shoot us an email, hello@crackitpodcast.com. Please rate, subscribe, or follow us wherever you listen to your podcast, or just tell a friend. Thank you all for listening. We'll see you next time.

Simon:

Bye bye.

Romain:

Bye bye.

Jesse:

Good night.

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